Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

U.S. Military Krags
Whig
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Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

Post by Whig » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:48 pm

So, I was trudging through Joe Farmers fantastically researched Krag book the other day when I got to his short discussion on Philippine Constabulary rifles.

He makes the comment that official PCs were made at the Manila Ordnance Depot. He says that any real PC, based on his documentation, would have been made at this facility from cut down 1899 Krag carbines sold to them from the United States. They would have been marked with anMOD cartouche in addition to the accepted marks from Springfield Armory. He could not be certain but he surmises from existing records that many of them probably were supplied with Model 1902 carbine sights that had just been produced.

He also makes the statement, quite boldly, that no known PC rifles exist in the US. I believe there may be one in a museum but not marked in this specific manner to best qualify. Krags that were produced in the US for a variety of schools and military institutions could have been fabricated in different facilities and most likely, if officially produced at Springfield, would be marked with the boxed JFC cartouche. But not real PCs.

I e-mailed him pictures of my school gun I have been working on recently because of the features, sight and stock markings that have never been understood or deciphered.

He responded in a determinate way that my school gun is, intact, a real Philippine Constabulary rifle. He did mention that he couldn't believe he made this determination and, if he needed to after more consideration, would retract it. He hasnt.

In fact he has rewritten that chapter for his book regarding PCs. You can read the new addition to that chapter at his website, if you register, and also order his Krag book if you havent done so already.

www.5madfarmers.com

We have had numerous back and forth discussions about this rifle. He said we'll never see another.

(continued below)

Whig
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:53 am

Re: Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

Post by Whig » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:54 pm

Reprinted with permission:

English sucks for this.

What we know and what we do not know. 

To "know" that a gun is one of the PC carbines it'd probably have to be in a museum somewhere in the P.I. with a note that it had never left the P.I..  So let's skip that.  These are really the only guns that'd we'd "know" are PC carbines.  So that's right out the window.
To "know" that a gun isn't one of the PC carbines it'd have to fail an obvious test.  "Um, that has a 30" barrel.  It's an M-1896 rifle.  I'm comfortable that I know it isn't one of the PC carbines."

Your gun doesn't fail the "I know it isn't."

So then we're in, what in civil court, is called "preponderance of evidence."  In other words, taking in the entire holistic view of it, which way does the point go?  "Is" or "is not?" 

In looking at the pictures, not getting into pointless nonsense, my experience tells me:  "that appears to be a PC carbine."  I don't know that it is.  We already covered that though.  We also know that we know what isn't a PC carbine.  That one didn't fail that bit.  So, of all the Krags I've viewed in my experience, your gun is the only one where my brain said "that one appears to be."  That is the closest thing you'll get out of me on what it is.

Let me put it another way.

If I had to select from the following:
a)  School gun.
b)  PC carbine.
c)  Something else.

I'd go with (b).

No other Krag has had me go with (b).  It's always been (a) or (c).

Feel free to post that where-ever.  I'm not getting into a debate with people who have no idea what they're going on about though so they can howl at the moon over my determination.  I'm comfortable with it.

Keep the original pictures and the pictures of the gun you have; it'll explain the work.
Put the original cocking piece back.
Print this and keep it with the gun.  For what it's worth my view may have some weight in the claim that it's probably a PC carbine.

Cheers.
Joseph A. Farmer
28 January 2019

(con't)

Whig
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Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:53 am

Re: Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

Post by Whig » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:58 pm

Here are the two posts, with pictures, about this carbine:

http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1512681275/0#0

http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1548285994

He presents more interesting research documentation in his new chapter written on his website about this find. I won't copy it here because it is his copyrighted information. Just go there and register and read some interesting Krag writing.

Order his Krag book. It's inexpensive, full of research and unusual comments and he adds a ton of information that Poyer, Brophy and Mallory don't have.

Thanks for your hard work and great research Joe. I appreciate the declaration about this rifle. At least I feel that we have more knowledge now about a difficult area of Krag collecting. Lots of school rifles. Few PCs.

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butlersrangers
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Re: Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

Post by butlersrangers » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:01 pm

Congratulations 'Whig', that is all great information. I am glad this rarity went to a KCA member, who is careful and generous in sharing information and does "follow up".

(I hope you do not regret any advice that was given here. IMHO - You nicely 'stabilized' a damaged Stock tip and have prepared your P.C. Rifle for better display and actual firing).

Note - I believe there is an error, in your first post, above, when mention is made of P.C. rifles being "supplied with M92 carbine sights". (I believe what was intended was: 'model 1902 carbine sights').

I'm glad you have come to possess this rare piece of history.

Whig
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:53 am

Re: Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

Post by Whig » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:15 pm

Thanks for picking up that error. It has been corrected. I didn't proof read well enough with hacking away with one of these cold weather coughs.

Thanks and I enjoy sharing here because I have a ton to learn from people who have been places and done things I haven't.

Larry

FredC
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Location: Dewees Texas

Re: Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

Post by FredC » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:20 pm

I have been watching and waiting for someone here to come up with a nice and ultra rare Krag worth a gazillion dollars. So you have got the closest thing so far!  Congrats!

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Local Boy
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Re: Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

Post by Local Boy » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:12 pm

KA BOOM! WOWZA!

I'm with FredC... Nice to see these gems pop-up from time-to-time.  You've got the Hope Diamond of Krags.

Now go out and find a Krag bolo bayonet at a yard sale and pay only $2.00 for it!

HeyJoe
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Re: Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

Post by HeyJoe » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:51 pm

I too like the logic in this thread.

Kerz
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Re: Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

Post by Kerz » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:45 pm

Whig
That is absolutely awesome!  Congratulations!
Vic
Preparedness + Opportunity= Luck

NRA Benefactor Member
KY & WV State Rifle & Pistol Association Life Member

FredC
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Location: Dewees Texas

Re: Fantastic Krag Revelation by Joe Farmer...

Post by FredC » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:05 pm

Now we have to find that non issued Krag in the cosmoline that has not been touched by human hands for the last 100 years.

My dad bought a 1917 Enfield in the 1940s and gave it to a friend that really liked it, then he bought another for himself. The second $6.50 rifle was new in the cosmoline, but he promptly sporterized it. Not as bad as it sounds, it was built from parts, Remington, Winchester, and others.

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